the full-text abduction of paul czege - Comments

Paul Czege: In the Clutches of a Game Design (part two)

nospam@example.com (Paul Czege) — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 20:13:46 +0000

Hey Moreno,

I put Nicotine Girls to the Internet in May, 2002, but I didn't actually play(test) it until early August, 2003. I designed the core of My Life with Master in the months prior to July, 2002, and playtested it at Gen Con that year. It went through external playtesting and got written and published for Gen Con 2003. So by the time I playtested Nicotine Girls, My Life with Master was designed, playtested, written and off to the printer. And what I realized after the Nicotine Girls playtest is that everything the game could teach me about delivering antagonism customized to the player characters, and about aiming for the end of play as a creative destination I'd already learned from My Life with Master. So, Acts of Evil, which yet has something to teach me, still has me in its clutches feverishly designing. But Nicotine Girls doesn't. I do love Nicotine Girls, and it wouldn't be that hard for me to write the rules up more fully, with examples and play advice. But with so many other design ideas that represent real learning opportunities I wish I had time for, I just don't ever seem to find time for Nicotine Girls.

Paul

Moreno R.: In the Clutches of a Game Design (part two)

nospam@example.com (Moreno R.) — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:04:26 +0000

What about Nicotine Girls?

Paul Czege: Who In the World Would Want a Game Like That?

nospam@example.com (Paul Czege) — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 03:12:05 +0000

Hey Jeremy,

Are you an active (or lapsed) RPGer? Or were you just curious from having seen the My Life with Master posting on BoingBoing?

Paul

Jeremy: Who In the World Would Want a Game Like That?

nospam@example.com (Jeremy) — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 02:41:28 +0000

I am another that heard about your stuff via boingboing. I got the pdf of MLWM and then the printed book and ashcan of AoE. :)

Nathan Paoletta: Why Isn't Anyone Playing Your Sophomore Milestone Game?

nospam@example.com (Nathan Paoletta) — Mon, 07 Apr 2008 03:40:40 +0000

Hrm. I consider Annalise my sophomore game, and it's GM-less. I always get to play! Two birds with one stone?

It's not ready for the world yet though, so I have no idea how sales are gonna work out. I anticipate that it will sell better than carry, mainly because it has a much wider target audience. But, who knows!

Michael S. Miller: The Parable of Paths

nospam@example.com (Michael S. Miller) — Sun, 06 Apr 2008 14:33:23 +0000

I understand the Anier and Fulgencio must comment that Oswardo's path is not for everyone. Their "adherents," as you call them, need to know the costs and consequences associated with oswardo's path. They need to know what goals that path will take them toward, and what portion of their life traveling that path will demand.

I fail to see why the distinction must be made in a negative tone. "*We* don't take that path." You're right that the pain originates from the contradiction of the sentiments "Oswardo's path is the wrong path for the community" and "Oswards is a valued member of the community and we think he's great."

I just don't understand why there needs to be emphasis on Oswardo's being a "wrong" or "threatening" path, when all it is is a different path.

Chad Underkoffler: Why Isn't Anyone Playing Your Sophomore Milestone Game?

nospam@example.com (Chad Underkoffler) — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 09:22:32 +0000

Actually, in my case, this isn't true.

Not counting MNPR:RPG (which, like your Bacchanal, is not of the same size/scope as DEAD INSIDE), TRUTH & JUSTICE has been much, much more successful than DI, in terms of both sales and play.

Maybe it's a feature of my doing a bit of freelance writing in the industry before publishing DI, but I've always tried to design games that I'd want to both play and run.

But in this, as in so many others, I think I'm an outlier. I think your theory here is worthy of more thought.

CU

Clyde L. Rhoer: Why Isn't Anyone Playing Your Sophomore Milestone Game?

nospam@example.com (Clyde L. Rhoer) — Fri, 04 Apr 2008 03:10:43 +0000

Hey Paul,

It's a challenging game to play. Do you want to run it? Is that what you're questioning?

I think you may have an audience waiting for the finished product. I know I get several hits a month on my site of people searching for Acts of Evil. Besides say Psi Run that doesn't happen for the other folks I've interviewed. Typically they are searched for by name, which happens for you too also.

Josh Roby: Why Isn't Anyone Playing Your Sophomore Milestone Game?

nospam@example.com (Josh Roby) — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 02:33:03 +0000

Yup, same here. Sons of Liberty is selling really slowly compared to Full Light, Full Steam. Despite the fact that SoL is oodles easier to run than FLFS, I'm not hearing any AP reports.

However, Sons is much more a game-I-want-to-play, and FLFS is much more a game-I-want-to-run, so I dunno how my data stacks up to your hypothesis.

Justin D. Jacobson: Why Isn't Anyone Playing Your Sophomore Milestone Game?

nospam@example.com (Justin D. Jacobson) — Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:55:20 +0000

I experienced the phenomenon with Passages (assuming Dawning Star was my "first game"). I did a thread on it at S-G ("Why is no one talking about Passages?") and got a lot of responses. In the final analysis, I think there are two fundamental issues. First was a failure of marketing similar to what Ben mentioned. The second was a critical failure in the design methodology that left the game in a very difficult gray area between d20 and indie fare.

Interesting post, Paul.

Ben Lehman: Why Isn't Anyone Playing Your Sophomore Milestone Game?

nospam@example.com (Ben Lehman) — Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:33:18 +0000

Huh. I like your hypothesis. And yet, I have some data that's contrary to it's underlying data.

Let's not conflate sales and play. Looking at my e-mail, I think that Bliss Stage actually gets considerably more play than Polaris per unit sold. Of course, there's no real way to measure how much a game is played, I can only see the records of it in forum posts, blogs, my e-mail, and sometimes via watching a game spread locally on IPR (if I sell a copy of Polaris to Sometown, and then three months later I sell two copies in Sometown, I infer that some successful play has occured.)

What does seem to be happening is that it is getting played, largely, outside of the circles I run in online. Which, given that I have a totally different target audience than Polaris, is a reasonable thing. I'm as likely to see people talking about a playing Bliss Stage on a fanfic community or on Livejournal as I am on the Forge.

So in terms of play, response, and so on I'm happy with the game.

My failure to have good sales I think is a result of not pandering to the dis-satisfied gamer (something all the best selling games do, in spades) and a complete and total failure of marketing the game, on several levels (failing to market well to my pre-existing audience, failing to market well to the target audience, failing to differentiate my release plan from an ashcan system, etc.)

Which I hope to write about soon.

But is Bliss Stage the game I want to GM, rather than wanting to play it? I'm not sure. I have to ponder that one, looking at a lot of my experiences with the game. If it is the game I want to GM, I have some very odd preferences for GMing.

yrs--
--Ben

Paul Czege: The Parable of Paths

nospam@example.com (Paul Czege) — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:06:59 +0000

You'll note that Elequemedo never voices an opinion of Oswardo's path. Though it's clear from the frowns and lack of conversation at the end that he understands the views of Fulgencio and Anier, Elequemedo never voices his own view. What's not clear in the parable (because I'm not that good at writing parables) is the reason he can opt not to voice his opinion is that, unlike Fulgencio and Anier, he does not have adherents who expect him to comment.

And this is how you know that the views expressed by Fulgencio and Anier are not personal. They are cultural. Fulgencio, Elequemedo, and Anier are aware of how mightily Oswardo toiled, and have great respect for it. They aren't running Oswardo down by expressing their views. Were Fulgencio and Anier to voice their personal views, they would be great compliments about Oswardo and his powers.

But cultures are normative. If they aren't, they cease to be cultures. And the normative spine within a culture is the expressed views of those with adherents.

So what we see happen in the parable is Oswardo instantiate his aesthetics and values in his work, thereby asserting to the community that they represent a significant creative direction; and then we see the community reject those values (rightly or wrongly, perhaps irrationally, or perhaps not, and despite substantial outside validation of those values) while also trying to individually maintain their very mutual and personal affections for Oswardo. (To get this you have to hear the jokey tone in Fulgencio's voice when he says "gross" and the humble and submissive tone in Anier's voice when he says "greater than my path in every dimension".)

The disjunction between cultural/impersonal normative roles and personal affection and respect is the essence of pain for all concerned.

Sean Sakamoto: The Parable of Paths

nospam@example.com (Sean Sakamoto) — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 20:38:08 +0000

Luke Crane worked very hard to create a fully-realized execution of his vision for an RPG. I understand that nobody gets an A for effort in the real world where results matter. But they sure as heck shouldn't get an F for effort either.

I don't understand why Burning Empires gets criticism for its production values. I would expect gamers to discuss how the game actually plays. Isn't that what matters? If the game is fun or not? I listened to the podcast with Luke and Vincent, and it seemed pretty clear that the consensus was that in the RPG community, what matters is playing games and talking about game play.

Luke seems to have surprised a lot of people by producing a game that looked very slick and well produced. He was using fantastic art from Christopher Moeller. Who wouldn't want Moeller's work to look as good as possible? And it does look good.

That doesn't mean that suddenly all games must look that good or else they're not playable. I have never heard Luke criticize a game for having poor production values. What matters is the vision of the artist, and in Burning Empires, Luke's vision was of an RPG set in a rich and vivid universe created by a talented painter.

It's frustrating to me to see people who care about gaming try to run down the work of a fellow gamer simply because he's very good at design and production.

Full disclosure: I wrote fiction for Burning Empires, Blossoms, and Burning Wheel, and I made a documentary on Christopher Moeller.

I'm clearly an interested party. But I feel strongly that when a man works hard to make his work look good, that alone doesn't merit criticism. Now whether or not you think it accomplishes its goal, which is to give the player a great experience, is a whole other matter. Personally, I think Luke succeeds on that point as well, but that's ultimately a matter of taste.

Michael S. Miller: The Parable of Paths

nospam@example.com (Michael S. Miller) — Fri, 28 Mar 2008 14:36:37 +0000

It's your blog, so I'll continue your metaphor. You say:
"The "path" created by Oswardo's blow was wider than that of the others, twice as wide as Anier's path, and arrayed with orchids in bloom, and so, was quite pleasing to the eye and senses."
But you don't say "Oswardo toiled night and day, neglecting the cooking of his own food, neglecting correspondence with his friends and family, neglecting the need for a noontime siesta in order to make his path twice as wide and to plant the beautiful orchids."
The orchids weren't just there. Oswardo put them there. In our community, we've talked about how game playing fits into a certain social context. It was one of the defining five threads. As designers, we know that we need to be aware of how the playing of our games will fit into the social context of our players' lives. Is our game built to run in a single evening? Does it require a dozen sessions to really shine? Does everyone need to read certain parts of the book beforehand?
However, it is also important to keep in mind that game design & publishing exists within a social context, as well. Is your game design & publishing the most important priority in your life? Is it the second most important? Is it something you do only AFTER you've fulfilled your obligations as a family member, as an employee, as a friend, as a citizen, and walked the dog, too?
One of the great things that the community has engineered are paths that allow people in that last group (like me) to make their creative products available to others, and possibly make a profit. Those paths are well-trod and more new people flock to them every day.
It's odd to consider Oswardo's path threatening when no one is following it! Really, I'm not seeing people striving to plant orchids all over the place. Oswardo's path is difficult and life-consuming and here we are--a year and half after the biggest part of the path was cut--and we see no one following. I see lots of people following Elequemedo's path. The closest I see to those following Oswardo's path are a couple folks who already have long histories in traditional game publishing, and want the best of both worlds--the production values of the traditional model with the creative control of the indie model.
I think that the community that Fulgencio started has had a number of different goals. As with any artistic movement, individual members are going to prioritize the goals differently. My perception of some of the goals:
• System Does Matter--Thoughtful, consciously-designed rules and procedures can and should replicate the social play experience that the designer intended.
• Self-Publishing--Individual creators do not need to enter potentially exploitative relationships with publishing companies to have their game available to a wide audience. A appropriate blog post is [url="http://rpgheretic.wordpress.com/2008/02/04/marketing-in-the-land-of-hobbyists/"]here[/url]
• Pushing Boundaries--The assumptions of game design and publishing should all be questioned and put to the test. There was a good livejournal post about it last month [url="http://bob-goat.livejournal.com/144028.html"]here[/url]
• Reaching the Mainstream--The appeal of games does not need to be limited to the subculture it has been been in the past. Normal people with everyday lives can enjoy playing games. A blog post is [url="http://www.chimera.info/2008/03/07/dice-quixote/"]here[/url]
There are, no doubt, others. My point is that each independent creator who self-identifies with the community will embrace these various goals with different enthusiasm. They will hold them at different priorities.
Any given path through the jungle will bring people closer to some of those priorities, and farther from others--that's why we're cutting paths in the first place. But just because Oswardo's path leads Oswardo farther from Elequemedo's or Anier's goals, doesn't mean what he's doing is bad for the community. Folks in the community who share more of Oswardo's goals will follow his path. If they had only had Elequemedo's path to follow, they would not have been happy anyway, since it took them away from their own goals.

Matt: 72 Hours of Boinging

nospam@example.com (Matt) — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:30:42 +0000

It is indeed cool. Way cool.